Yes, thank you TD for your research.
Rabbi Midge
JoinedPosts by Rabbi Midge
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60
Nephew’s JW Fiancée Begins Conversion to Judaism Due to Passover Date
by Rabbi Midge init’s been a while since i posted, but for those who remember, i came on here to get some information about jehovah’s witnesses because i have a nephew who was getting engaged to a girl who was a jehovah’s witness and, along with some other sites, i was recommended this one.. since then we’ve been busy with passover and jehovah’s witnesses have had something they call the memorial of christ’s death (i believe i have that right).
this clashing of the two observances apparently did more for this girl than anything else i ever saw in our months of conversations with her.. respectfully, jews do not proselytize.
these are people who, of their own desire, “join the tribe” after some years of study and practice--something this girl has just begun to do.
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60
Nephew’s JW Fiancée Begins Conversion to Judaism Due to Passover Date
by Rabbi Midge init’s been a while since i posted, but for those who remember, i came on here to get some information about jehovah’s witnesses because i have a nephew who was getting engaged to a girl who was a jehovah’s witness and, along with some other sites, i was recommended this one.. since then we’ve been busy with passover and jehovah’s witnesses have had something they call the memorial of christ’s death (i believe i have that right).
this clashing of the two observances apparently did more for this girl than anything else i ever saw in our months of conversations with her.. respectfully, jews do not proselytize.
these are people who, of their own desire, “join the tribe” after some years of study and practice--something this girl has just begun to do.
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Rabbi Midge
I don't know how much time you have spent with this young lady but have you considered that you may have bombarded her with you Jewish ideas?
Listener:
No, I haven't. I explained, Jews don't proselytize.
But why not answer my first question as I previously asked you to?
Can you explain how your words apply to Judaism and these concepts I have expressed here?
...referring to my post wherein I wrote this sentence. Let's stay on the subject and show how well you can argue something proficiently.
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60
Nephew’s JW Fiancée Begins Conversion to Judaism Due to Passover Date
by Rabbi Midge init’s been a while since i posted, but for those who remember, i came on here to get some information about jehovah’s witnesses because i have a nephew who was getting engaged to a girl who was a jehovah’s witness and, along with some other sites, i was recommended this one.. since then we’ve been busy with passover and jehovah’s witnesses have had something they call the memorial of christ’s death (i believe i have that right).
this clashing of the two observances apparently did more for this girl than anything else i ever saw in our months of conversations with her.. respectfully, jews do not proselytize.
these are people who, of their own desire, “join the tribe” after some years of study and practice--something this girl has just begun to do.
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Rabbi Midge
Perhaps you dont see the contradiction, but i think im seeing it as listener did. Shes a young girl searching for something, be it jwism or Judaism. I hope shes happy, but dont be fooled into thinking this some deeply thought out logical choice.
Morpheus:
If you don't mind me asking, what is this "logical choice" you are referring to? Surely you are aware that it takes up to three or more years for someone to convert to Judaism.
All I said is she has merely started the process, meaning she has just begun to inquire. She is doing this because she wants to get married and wants to have children and raise them in a society where they will have freedom of religion or the freedom to reject it. She has discussed even being atheist, which I have assured her she can be even if she becomes Jewish.
The only choice, again, she has made is to investigate what Judaism is about. Whether she formally is accepted as a convert and becomes a Jew won't be decided for a very, very long time from now. It is up to her if she wants to be part of our culture. She doesn't have to be. She has decided to no longer be a part of the Witnesses, and has formally declared that.
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60
Nephew’s JW Fiancée Begins Conversion to Judaism Due to Passover Date
by Rabbi Midge init’s been a while since i posted, but for those who remember, i came on here to get some information about jehovah’s witnesses because i have a nephew who was getting engaged to a girl who was a jehovah’s witness and, along with some other sites, i was recommended this one.. since then we’ve been busy with passover and jehovah’s witnesses have had something they call the memorial of christ’s death (i believe i have that right).
this clashing of the two observances apparently did more for this girl than anything else i ever saw in our months of conversations with her.. respectfully, jews do not proselytize.
these are people who, of their own desire, “join the tribe” after some years of study and practice--something this girl has just begun to do.
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Rabbi Midge
I think Listener has hit upon an interesting point that divides the Western mind, often shaped by Christianity, from the Eastern mind, namely that religion is like a club that you join, and it is separate from your racial/ethnic/cultural even gender identity.
It isn't like that for Jews. We don't "join" Judaism. It isn't a religion we study and decide if we like or sign up.
We might belong to a certain Temple or synagogue or a different denomination from another Jew or even be an atheist or humanist member of Jewish society, but we are still Jewish.
Come Shabbat, we may still light candles, say prayers, stop work, keep certain traditions, etc., yet not adhere to any certain type of teaching our neighbor Jew does. We may not subscribe to the theology of the Jew who lives across the street, agree with the Jew who lives in Israel, or even adopt the religious views of our parents.
But come Yom Kippur we might still fast, come Passover we will still hold a Seder, we will still count the Omer until Shavout, still pray the Shema each morning and each night, and even, if asked, claim we do not believe in God if asked formally on a form. How is this? It escapes the mind of those who have been raised in the Western/Christian world. They cannot wrap their heads around it, I seem to notice.
For some, you say God and they think of the Christian concept: a spirit person who hears prayers and grants them and is or should be responsible for stopping the evil happening in the world today. This concept is very immature and even childish to the Jew.
Some Western atheists hear religion and think a club that is united by a common creed or articles of faith that you must accept. They don't know that these are Christian views and that there is no creed in Judaism or even faith for the most part in Judaism.
So tread lightly before you start speaking about what this woman is doing. She is joining a new culture for her because she is marrying a Jew and they plan to start a family. She wants to be a part of a common shared culture to raise her children in with her husband. She may end up being an atheist, but she wants to raise her children in such a culture that will allow her children to be free to do that be safe while she does that. The Jehovah's Witness culture won't allow for that, but ours, the Jewish culture will. She understands that. She is studying who we are, but not like Listener has mistakenly come to the conclusion of adopting some central set of beliefs--of which there are none.
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Nephew’s JW Fiancée Begins Conversion to Judaism Due to Passover Date
by Rabbi Midge init’s been a while since i posted, but for those who remember, i came on here to get some information about jehovah’s witnesses because i have a nephew who was getting engaged to a girl who was a jehovah’s witness and, along with some other sites, i was recommended this one.. since then we’ve been busy with passover and jehovah’s witnesses have had something they call the memorial of christ’s death (i believe i have that right).
this clashing of the two observances apparently did more for this girl than anything else i ever saw in our months of conversations with her.. respectfully, jews do not proselytize.
these are people who, of their own desire, “join the tribe” after some years of study and practice--something this girl has just begun to do.
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Rabbi Midge
Listener,
Reconstructionism views Judaism not as a religion but a community, a culture made up of art, food, music, philosophy, archaeology, history, science, mathematics, and a religion too.
We have a saying in Reconstructing Judaism: "Our religious tradition has a vote on the way we act today, but not a veto."
There are no central beliefs to Judaism that anyone has to adhere to, and people can reject this or that teaching and remain a Jew. Being Jewish is who you are, not what teaching you accept or believe in like Western thought or Christianity demand.
So I am not sure what you mean. Can you explain how your words apply to Judaism and these concepts I have expressed here?
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60
Nephew’s JW Fiancée Begins Conversion to Judaism Due to Passover Date
by Rabbi Midge init’s been a while since i posted, but for those who remember, i came on here to get some information about jehovah’s witnesses because i have a nephew who was getting engaged to a girl who was a jehovah’s witness and, along with some other sites, i was recommended this one.. since then we’ve been busy with passover and jehovah’s witnesses have had something they call the memorial of christ’s death (i believe i have that right).
this clashing of the two observances apparently did more for this girl than anything else i ever saw in our months of conversations with her.. respectfully, jews do not proselytize.
these are people who, of their own desire, “join the tribe” after some years of study and practice--something this girl has just begun to do.
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Rabbi Midge
It’s been a while since I posted, but for those who remember, I came on here to get some information about Jehovah’s Witnesses because I have a nephew who was getting engaged to a girl who was a Jehovah’s Witness and, along with some other sites, I was recommended this one.
Since then we’ve been busy with Passover and Jehovah’s Witnesses have had something they call the Memorial of Christ’s Death (I believe I have that right). This clashing of the two observances apparently did more for this girl than anything else I ever saw in our months of conversations with her.
Respectfully, Jews do not proselytize. Yes, there are Jews-by-choice. These are people who, of their own desire, “join the Tribe” after some years of study and practice--something this girl has just begun to do. But prior to this, this girl was definitely heavily proselytizing my nephew and the rest of the family every chance she got (though she admits she thought she was being subtle about it---HA!). This is, from what I understand and from my own experience, what Jehovah’s Witnesses do--preach their unique gospel every chance they get to everyone because "we’ll die without it."
The Passover Date: Nisan 15
What changed everything for this girl was our inviting her over to celebrate Pesach or Passover with us by coming over for Seder. She said that she couldn’t because she would be busy on Saturday night to “observe the Memorial of Christ’s Death on Nisan the 14th.”
When we told her that the 14th of Nisan was on Thursday night after sundown and the Passover began on Friday after sundown, she was taken aback. At first she began to argue with us that we had our dates wrong, that Passover was on Saturday evening. We told her that it was on Friday. She said it had to be on the 14th, and that the 14th was on Saturday.
We showed her the Jewish calendar on our wall, and it clearly demonstrated that the 14th was Thursday evening after sundown, the 15th was Friday night, and that Saturday after sundown was the 16th of Nisan.
She still believed it to be in error (a mass-produced, printed calendar we purchased from a Judaica store). So we showed her Hebcal.com, the Internet Jewish calendar site, and we showed her from there that we were not in error: “Nisan 15, the (1st) Erev (Evening) of Passover, Friday Night. Seder/Candle lighting begins at . . . Local time.”
She then began to panic. “This can’t be right! Saturday has to be the 14th! The full moon will be visible over Jerusalem starting on Saturday night.”
“No,” I replied. “The full moon will be visible over Jerusalem beginning on Friday, the 15th. In fact, if you want, we can make a video call to my family in Jerusalem and we can ask them to show you the sky and you can see for yourself.”
She suddenly calmed down, sat on the sofa in my living room and began to speak softly. “No,” she said. “That is okay. I believe you.”
She did not attend her Memorial of Christ’s Death at her Kingdom Hall or any other meeting after that. She attended her first Passover Seder instead and has been studying Judaism.
JW vs. Jew
Today she is bravely walking down a new path her family doesn’t understand, but she seems to be the voice of power and strength in her household. When they told her that they will reject her and not speak to her if she becomes a Jew, she sat them down and told them they had better not and won’t allow their rejection if they know what’s good for them. I was there when she did this, and I’ve never seen a father (who was a man twice her size) cower to such a tiny person. She has a strong personality. (I don’t know if officially this will work. I doubt it, but this girl’s got fire.)
Still, despite her determination it is not coming easy, and I am glad. She is learning that she cannot accept things at face value as she did when she was a Jehovah’s Witness. It confuses her at times because she expects there to be a Bible verse for everything, and there isn’t. At least she has come to accept that this will take much time to understand where she is going and what she is learning.
For instance, we belong to the Reconstructing Judaism movement and our views are very different from what she has known as a Jehovah’s Witness. I share a few here so you who have been or still are Jehovah’s Witnesses might see what she is switching over to (JW view--from her--in bold):
God is a Spirit person.
God is not a person.
The Bible is the inspired Word of God, written by humans as direct instruments of God.
The Bible is a collection of writings of the Jewish people’s attempt to understand God, written by themselves, an ancient means of trying to comprehend the concept of God or what is godly through myth, fable, and history romanticized as liturgy and poetry.
There is one true religion, and those who follow it are God’s chosen.
There is no true religion, and not even the Jews are God’s chosen people. Judaism is a community and a people, and religion is but part of its cultural expression.
You must use God’s name in order for God to hear your prayers.
There is no indication that the Divine Name was ever pronounced or preserved. God is not a supernatural entity that literally hears prayers like a genie or fairy that grants wishes. Prayer is a means to connect with God, community, and even self on a spiritual level. As the old Jewish proverb goes: “Pray as if it all depends on God, but act as if it all depends on you.”
Without faith in God, one cannot practice the religion of God.
Many people reject God because they understand God as a being that can break the laws of nature and act like a person. The current theology of Judaism does not require that God be believed in or be supernatural or an entity, and this allows for many who practice Judaism to be atheist at the same time.
The main goal of worshiping God is to gain everlasting life.
Jews don’t worship God or do good or pray to gain eternal life. Many don’t even believe in the concept of an afterlife. There is good in doing good itself right now. Because God is often found not so much in some external spiritual experience as much as in some practical experience wherein we meet the real need of someone, bring about justice, care for someone, love someone, God is not so much where but when. So some Jews don’t see reward as something future but present when we strive to bring redemption to the world even now. Waiting to participate in eternity after we are dead is too late in the eyes of some when we can participate in it by doing something godly right now.
In Conclusion
So things have changed dramatically for my nephew and his once-JW friend. As I wrote previously, I don’t get away often and have the free time to do so but I did want to add this here.
I will have to ask her one day just exactly what it was about the date that acted so dramatically upon her that made all this happen. It caused such panic in her originally, such fearful panic, then a panic of denial, and then immediate acceptance. It was very quick. But, after all, it was still just a date on a calendar. Maybe some of you will know more about this than me because of your experience as Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I am also not sure why Jehovah’s Witnesses are claiming to follow the Jewish calendar for Christ’s Last Supper but ignoring the actual calendar itself when it’s available everywhere in this day and age on things like the Internet, again such as on Hebcal.com. I can understand them being stubborn and even claiming that the world is wrong and under Satan’s control and everything, but ignoring an actual calendar and being two whole days off? How do they get away with it?
Thanks for reading.
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Are there any instances of "GOD" order and/or condoning the rape of women in the bible?
by Black Man inthis came up recently with my dyed-in-the-wool jw pioneer mother, who swears up and down that there are no scriptural instances of this happening.
i seem to remember a couple passages, but can't remember where they were..
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Rabbi Midge
Humbled,
I haven't any idea how you have made this thread about you. It is not.
As to your needing to get more education, this is very apparent. To illustrate:
You mentioned in your first post to me that...
Conservative Jews give the man the freedom to easily divorce. Not so for the woman . How does that still bind ?
This is not accurate or true at all. Conservative Judaism does not under any circumstances give Jewish men more freedom to divorce their wives than they do women. Women may initiate the process, and a man may be thus morally obligated under Jewish law to grant the divorce to his wife even if she wants it but he does not.
However, you spoke and came to a judgment of me and Judaism based on your lack of education adding that you had no time for my "foolishness."
But the ignorance you choose has led you to a wrong conclusion. This thread wasn't originally about college anyway or you. It was about several particular texts from Scripture.
Get your facts straight. If you going to run with the big educated dogs, you had better be ready to keep up with them. Otherwise stay on the porch.
And yes, that's from a rabbi. We ain't sissy Christian preachers or sweet nuns. This thread is not about you, and nobody cares about your feelings, honey. Get your facts straight or get an education or get out of the way.
And don't just sit there among the unwashed, uneducated masses...for goodness sake, clean them up and educate them while you're there.
P.S.: And you're right. I don't know what kind of work you do or where you live, etc. And frankly I don't care. See how ignorant you are about Judaism? You need education. Get a degree. I will stop bugging you about it once your ignorance disappears. You don't like it? I'm cool with that.
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Are there any instances of "GOD" order and/or condoning the rape of women in the bible?
by Black Man inthis came up recently with my dyed-in-the-wool jw pioneer mother, who swears up and down that there are no scriptural instances of this happening.
i seem to remember a couple passages, but can't remember where they were..
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Rabbi Midge
Goodness, NO, EverApostate! I'm Jewish, not Christian!
Either you're not reading my posts, or you're reading them with some sort of projected view you've picked up from somewhere.
What have you people been taught about what Jews think about their own Scriptures? That we really believe these things are literally true? Really? Is that what the Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses teach you folks?
No wonder my nephew's JW girlfriend is so adamant that Passover is supposed to be on Nisan 14 instead of on Nisan 15 (and she pronounces it NEYE-san instead of nuh-SAN as it is supposed to be pronounced, which irritates the snot out of her each time I correct her, but that's another story for another time).
No, EverApostate. I am not a Southern Baptist or a Christian Fundamentalist. I am a Jewish Rabbi. As such, I do not hold the Biblical events as literal.
If you have been taught that Jews do, then you need to check out a publication by the Jewish Publication Society: "The Jewish Study Bible." It contains the latest NJPS translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into English and critical study notes comprised by the latest Jewish scholars representing Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jewish thought. You will note that the Jewish view on the Biblical events is nothing like you probably have been taught by Western or Christian society. It definitely is not literal history.
Where on earth did you get the idea from any of my comments that I was doing that sort of thing? Didn't you see the word "Rabbi" in my name? Don't you have the slightest idea what Jews understand about the Scriptures? I've been saying "liturgy" repeatedly in my comments. Don't you know the difference between "liturgy" and "history"?
Well, I got to go for now. It may be a while before I return. I do have real rabbi work to do. This has been an experience.
Promise me, folks, that you will learn what Jews really teach about things, and not just by using Google. Go take a class from your local college. Go visit a synagogue or temple. Take a university course. Buy the Jewish Study Bible and study the critical footnote apparatus.
"Are you seriously defending the Biblical events?"
Really, now? What do you take me for? You're joking, right?
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Are there any instances of "GOD" order and/or condoning the rape of women in the bible?
by Black Man inthis came up recently with my dyed-in-the-wool jw pioneer mother, who swears up and down that there are no scriptural instances of this happening.
i seem to remember a couple passages, but can't remember where they were..
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Rabbi Midge
Humbled: There is a big, BIG, difference between Roman Catholic liturgy and the far more ancient liturgy of Judaism--which is far more ancient by thousands of years.
Roman Catholic liturgy may have been designed to create an emotional impact, but Jewish liturgy was designed to educate and instruct, to keep a culture alive and going. It was not designed to subvert like the Catholic liturgy you describe.
To illustrate: If it were not for the Jewish liturgy, some of my people would have been extinguished by the Catholics during the Spanish Inquisition. Instead, the Crypto-Jews kept it alive and practiced it secretly for some 500 years, even managing to keep their language of Ladino alive halfway across the world as they were chased from Spain to the Americas--all the while handing down their cultural identity from generation to generation despite hatred, death threats, antisemitism and persecution by means of the Jewish liturgical services the Crypto-Jews attributed to memory.
Call me condescending if you want. That doesn't mean I'm wrong in anything I've said. We might not appreciate the way something is said to us, but that doesn't make what is said to us any less valuable. Exercise, medicine, and often the truth hurts.
And as for a college education, well, Humbled, you need it. And it is possible. If you can't afford it yourself, there should be avenues available for you somehow. A college education does not offer a moral value, you're right there. What it does offer, however, is a value in critical thinking, a value in freedom to become something more than what you are now.
Hate me. Despise me. Call me names. Call me condescending. I couldn't care less. But I am right. You need an education. It is a possibility. It's always a possibility. It's never impossible. The only thing holding you back from getting one is you. If you fail to get one, since you say you did not grow up as a Jehovah's Witness, then the only person who is failing here is you.
With a screen name like "Humbled," I am sure you are someone who is definitely up to the challenge. I am sure you will not fail to become something and someone greater than you are now. Don't fail to get all the education you can possibly get.
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Are there any instances of "GOD" order and/or condoning the rape of women in the bible?
by Black Man inthis came up recently with my dyed-in-the-wool jw pioneer mother, who swears up and down that there are no scriptural instances of this happening.
i seem to remember a couple passages, but can't remember where they were..
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Rabbi Midge
Cofty: As for being patronizing, it was far from my intention.
In fact, you may have received that from reading something into my words from your own experiences--and this is likely. As you write "your story seems to imply...faith in god...." And then you go on to mention how you reject any sort of belief in God or faith as a means of discovering anything true.
If you know anything about Judaism, you should know that we don't hold much ado about belief in God or how much value in faith either. Those are tools of Christianity. While God is real, I neither believe in God's existence nor hold much value in faith. I also think that faith as a means of discovering or holding that anything be real is foolish, and so does Judaism in general.
But, I respect what you're getting at. I was writing in generalities, and often this can cause persons to whom a generalized illustration is offered feel either excluded or, in your case, talked down to. This wasn't the case. I was pointing out that the carriageman in my story was (the leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses) was the one you should be angry at.
While I am not saying this of you, Cofty, it is normal for an ex-member to project their anger at something or someone else when they cannot get to their real subject. I do expect others on this forum to become quite angry at what I've posted and direct their anger at me. For instance...
Humbled: No. But going to college and getting a university education should be the free choice of every person. When you grown up in a society where such is frowned upon, you tend not to choose it. You can learn about the Scriptures from a pure secular standpoint at a university and keep from making simple mistakes as are made in some places on this thread. Be angry with me if you want, but I didn't deny you of a college education if you grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and you never went to college. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses did. That's what I'm pointing out ultimately.